Create Song Styles

Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)

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Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Inspired by Chello saying he would give us some tips on converting midi files into styles I thought I would have a go at this song.  I used the midi2style program from Josoft's site.........The style is very basic as I don't really know what I am doing yet.....Maybe I will never really know what I am doing :( but please let me know what you think.

I have also attached the midi and a fakesheet for the song that I posted at our OldiesTunes site.

Dave  :smiley-music022:
#1 - December 15, 2014, 02:51:20 PM
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chellinoolmo

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Inspired by Chello saying he would give us some tips on converting midi files into styles I thought I would have a go at this song.  I used the midi2style program from Josoft's site.........The style is very basic as I don't really know what I am doing yet.....Maybe I will never really know what I am doing :( but please let me know what you think.

I have also attached the midi and a fakesheet for the song that I posted at our OldiesTunes site.

Dave  :smiley-music022:


Thanks for this example! 8)
Now I do not know how you have done it; if you left the program determine the choices, or if you have made settings by yourself.

First I want to note that this midi file is the most complex I've seen, since it has 16 instruments. The normal is 4-6. It is of very good quality.
But a file of such complexity is an unfortunate starting point, because it adds up to trouble with instrument definitions and harmonic distortions on the keyboard.

When it comes to my assessment of your conversion, it is as follows:

Main A to C is good, while Main D is identical to Main C. They should be different.
Intro A is good, while Intro B and C are identical to Intro A. They should be different.
Fill Ins are good, but all are identical. They should be different.
Fill In BA is ok, but is identical to Fill Ins. It should be different.
Endings are too short, and are identical with each other. They should be different.

So the actual style plays okay, but the rest should certainly be changed.

I've spent Style Works, and made the changes I believe are necessary in a version for the Tyros4, which I post here.
I also sends a print screen image of the final processing in Style Works to your email, so you can see my settings.

This example is brilliant to use in my later article, and I will therefore comment on this later; in more detail.


Best midi regards,
Chello
#2 - December 15, 2014, 06:10:32 PM
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« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 06:15:41 PM by chellinoolmo »
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Chello,

Many thanks to you for looking at this and for your helpful feedback.  Thanks also for creating and posting your version.

Funnily enough, I chose this song because I really like the song, plus I thought it might be relatively easy to create a style that would sound vaguely similar to the original song and the midi file even though there are a lot of channels in the midi......For example, if you listen to the actual Snow Patrol version of the song, or the midi I attached, it starts off very simply with the guitar from channel 6 playing notes A and E repeatedly and this basically continues right through the song but with more instuments kicking in later in the songs and I tried to replicate with main B and main C in my style.

Using the midi2style program I manually picked what I thought would be the best 6 channels to use based on the 6 channels which contained the most notes but excluding channel 4 because that is the melody track.

I only made one intro and one ending because they are identical and just contain the guitar from channel 6 playing the A and E notes.

I didn't even try to create any fill ins so maybe the program I used might have created them manually.

I am glad this gives you food for thought for the articles you plan to produce and when I have time I will have a go at some other songs because it is nice to have an opportunity to contribute to this forum.

Best regards,
Dave
PS Many thanks to our mutual good friend Fikke who sent me the midi file 8) 8) 8)
#3 - December 15, 2014, 06:57:48 PM
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Dear friends, I have a lot of respect for what you do. Now there is one thing I don't understand. Why do you want an intro 1, 2, 3 and ending 1.2,3 on your creation? A song style has the intention to approach the real song as faithfully as possible. The original song has only 1 intro 1 and ending. If you play the original cd at home you have not a button that allows you to choose which intro and ending you are going to use today. This system of work will save you a lot of time and avoid a lot of difficulties. I know a man here in Belgium who makes fantastic good song styles and styles. He works  this way. Intro 2 he uses for songs where there is a  fix pattern between the song and the chorus. He makes only an intro 1,2,3 and ending 1, 2, 3 by normal styles (waltz, country etc). Then you have as a player more variety.
#4 - December 16, 2014, 02:31:04 AM
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Chellino, Dave & Fikke
I'm with fikke when it comes to only needing one intro and one ending for a song style. On another personal matter, I prefer to have the name of the song before the performer for song styles. This is so that all my song styles appear in alphabetical order on my T4. This makes it so easy to find a song style when working through a music book because all my fake books print songs in alphabetical order.
I've attached both styles for Song Patrol. On my T4, Dave's style on shows 3 variations, while Chellino's has 4.
Best regards
Chris
#5 - December 16, 2014, 03:03:34 AM
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The following users thanked this post: erbis

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Chris, did you make changes to the snow patrol style you posted here, or is it just the styles from Chelli and Dave?
#6 - December 16, 2014, 03:08:49 AM
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Fikke
I put them through MidiPlayer set to T4. I left the voices as they were, and added ots......Oh! and I rearranged their names!!
Best regards
Chris
#7 - December 16, 2014, 03:20:18 AM
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Chris

Congratulations at your first attempt in MIDI to Style conversion. Works like a charm at my PSR S750.

Great to get this kind of feed back...  :)

Some years ago (app. 10 years) I wrote this at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/style2_7.htm

There are several reasons for poor conversion results:
• The MIDI file has only one intro and one ending, which makes it impossible to create several Intro and Ending Parts for the Style.
• The chord and scale detection may be fooled by un-complete chords, and not theoretical correct scales.
• The values of parameter changes, e.g. sustain changes, program change are not stored correctly.
• One or more MIDI file channels have both "Melody Line" and "Accompaniment Pattern" content.
• The MIDI file has limited variety in accompaniment patterns which makes it impossible to create several Main Parts.
• The MIDI file is musically to simple or ordinary to make a well working style file.

=======================================

Some of the comments above seems to overlook the fact, that a MIDI file has only one intro and one ending... 
and some MIDI files has a very limited variation...

Dont expect a conversion tool to be a composer tool too...  ;)

Keep up the good work
Jørgen

#8 - December 16, 2014, 10:45:10 AM
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:35:48 PM by admin »
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Sorry... Should be Dave...

60+ Error, I guess  :)

Jørgen
#9 - December 16, 2014, 10:47:45 AM

chellinoolmo

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Chris

Congratulations at your first attempt in MIDI to Style conversion. Works like a charm at my PSR S750.

Great to get this kind of feed back...  :)

Some years ago (app. 10 years) I wrote this at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/style2_7.htm

There are several reasons for poor conversion results:
• The MIDI file has only one intro and one ending, which makes it impossible to create several Intro and Ending Parts for the Style.
• The chord and scale detection may be fooled by un-complete chords, and not theoretical correct scales.
• The values of parameter changes, e.g. sustain changes, program change are not stored correctly.
• One or more MIDI file channels have both "Melody Line" and "Accompaniment Pattern" content.
• The MIDI file has limited variety in accompaniment patterns which makes it impossible to create several Main Parts.
• The MIDI file is musically to simple or ordinary to make a well working style file.

=======================================

Some of the comments above seems to overlook the fact, that a MIDI file has only one intro and one ending... 
and some MIDI files has a very limited variation...

Dont expect a conversion tool to be a composer tool too...  ;)

Keep up the good work
Jørgen




Thanks for your (as always) factual comment!
You have, however, overlooked that it is not Chris who has made this conversion; he has only added the OTS to my conversion.
The first conversion is DaveH's, which you afterwards perceived.

I am quite agree with everything you say, except the first point.
It is possible to change the intro (and all sequences), which I actually also have done this time.
How this is possible, I will try to explain in my recent article.
#10 - December 16, 2014, 11:54:33 AM
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi

Yes it was Dave, not Chris... My error... 60+ error...

I will look forward to hear about more intros. Guess these are not make automatically by a software program...

Regards
Jørgen 
#11 - December 16, 2014, 12:02:56 PM

chellinoolmo

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi

Yes it was Dave, not Chris... My error... 60+ error...

I will look forward to hear about more intros. Guess these are not make automatically by a software program...

Regards
Jørgen  


Good guess! 8)
It must be done 100% manually, yes ...
And it was ME, not DaveH... 60+++ :D


Regards,
Chello
#12 - December 16, 2014, 12:07:17 PM
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:09:42 PM by chellinoolmo »
 

chellinoolmo

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Dear friends, I have a lot of respect for what you do. Now there is one thing I don't understand. Why do you want an intro 1, 2, 3 and ending 1.2,3 on your creation? A song style has the intention to approach the real song as faithfully as possible. The original song has only 1 intro 1 and ending. If you play the original cd at home you have not a button that allows you to choose which intro and ending you are going to use today. This system of work will save you a lot of time and avoid a lot of difficulties. I know a man here in Belgium who makes fantastic good song styles and styles. He works  this way. Intro 2 he uses for songs where there is a  fix pattern between the song and the chorus. He makes only an intro 1,2,3 and ending 1, 2, 3 by normal styles (waltz, country etc). Then you have as a player more variety.


I am mainly agree with what you say, and you said it in a very humorous way! :D

This will surely be suitable for most people, but for me - which is a jazz musician -
it is not suited, since improvisation is one of the most important for me and many other jazz musicians.

Nevertheless, I think that the majority share your opinion, and I intend to deal with that, if the majority of the members wish.
#13 - December 16, 2014, 12:21:49 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Chellino, Dave & Fikke
I'm with fikke when it comes to only needing one intro and one ending for a song style. On another personal matter, I prefer to have the name of the song before the performer for song styles. This is so that all my song styles appear in alphabetical order on my T4. This makes it so easy to find a song style when working through a music book because all my fake books print songs in alphabetical order.
I've attached both styles for Song Patrol. On my T4, Dave's style on shows 3 variations, while Chellino's has 4.
Best regards
Chris


I agree with that the name should come first - this should primarily be shaped by users wish! 8)
I'll mention it to Ron. ;)

I just get his answer now: :)
It`s OK! 8)
#14 - December 16, 2014, 12:33:07 PM
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 02:18:31 PM by chellinoolmo »
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Jazz is indead an exception. The whole jazz culture is based on improvisation. But for all other song styles i strongly believe that 1 intro and 1 ending is the only right solution. When you have 3 intro's and 3 endings it's not longer a song style but a style (my opinion).
#15 - December 16, 2014, 12:48:01 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
Hi Chello,

Many thanks to you for looking at this and for your helpful feedback.  Thanks also for creating and posting your version.

Funnily enough, I chose this song because I really like the song, plus I thought it might be relatively easy to create a style that would sound vaguely similar to the original song and the midi file even though there are a lot of channels in the midi......For example, if you listen to the actual Snow Patrol version of the song, or the midi I attached, it starts off very simply with the guitar from channel 6 playing notes A and E repeatedly and this basically continues right through the song but with more instuments kicking in later in the songs and I tried to replicate with main B and main C in my style.

Using the midi2style program I manually picked what I thought would be the best 6 channels to use based on the 6 channels which contained the most notes but excluding channel 4 because that is the melody track.

I only made one intro and one ending because they are identical and just contain the guitar from channel 6 playing the A and E notes.

I didn't even try to create any fill ins so maybe the program I used might have created them manually.

I am glad this gives you food for thought for the articles you plan to produce and when I have time I will have a go at some other songs because it is nice to have an opportunity to contribute to this forum.

Best regards,
Dave
PS Many thanks to our mutual good friend Fikke who sent me the midi file 8) 8) 8)


You have thought rightly that have tried to copy the original song; ;)
while I created a style of it and track a bit of ... :D

But the case gave me anyway a good example! :)

Best midi regards,
Chello
#16 - December 16, 2014, 01:01:45 PM
 

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
(snip)
It must be done 100% manually, yes ...
(snip)

Ok, now we are talking...  ;)

However my midi2style converter software can make both
- a harmonized intro (you will have to play chords yourself)
AND
- a melodic intro (reuse the MIDI file directly).

Also a short intro (e.g. the count in measure) AND longer intros - however based on the same measures in tne MIDI file intro.

Same goes for endings.

I look forward to see your ideas about manually style creation. This is the hard stuff!

Regards
Jørgen

#17 - December 16, 2014, 02:46:18 PM

chellinoolmo

Re: Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars (Converted from a midi file)
(snip)
It must be done 100% manually, yes ...
(snip)

Ok, now we are talking...  ;)

However my midi2style converter software can make both
- a harmonized intro (you will have to play chords yourself)
AND
- a melodic intro (reuse the MIDI file directly).

Also a short intro (e.g. the count in measure) AND longer intros - however based on the same measures in tne MIDI file intro.

Same goes for endings.

I look forward to see your ideas about manually style creation. This is the hard stuff!

Regards
Jørgen




Yeap! 8)
In my opinion it is the manual section that requires most of the user, and therefore it has been done so little in this area.

Best regards,
Chello
#18 - December 16, 2014, 03:15:41 PM
 

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