Create Song Styles

<<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>

Discussion started on Tips and Tricks on creating Song Styles

chellinoolmo

<<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
MIDI to STYLE

Soon I will start on a MIDI project where I want to test out some ideas for how it's going to create styles from MIDI.

I have tried this many times over the years, mostly with very disappointing results. A few times it has gone reasonably well;
but it has always been major limitations with intros, variations, etc.

Now, however, I obtained many very good MIDI files that I got from Ron admin. Many thanks to him for that!

The hope is that some of these are made from a Korg style, which would provide better conditions for conversions.
All my experiences suggest that this is crucial for the result.

So we'll see if my ideas resulting in better results ...

I will comment in this post later.



First comment:
So far:
Style Works is completely useless for the purpose.
All the blogs I've read confirms this; non get usable results. :angry:

Then there are 2 possibilities:
Midi2Style is a program for Yamaha users, which can convert MIDI to Yamaha style.
Then I finally have to use Style Works to convert to Korg. I have barely used the program Midi2Style,
but it seems terribly cumbersome and time-consuming ... :(

Last chance:
Korg PA3x itself. It is possible to create styles from MIDI via the keyboard, but I have to study it a bit first ... ;)
#1 - November 03, 2014, 07:53:23 AM
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 12:20:10 AM by chellinoolmo »
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Kjell
I wish you well with your project... These are indeed exciting times.......

Ron
#2 - November 03, 2014, 08:59:16 AM
 
Wishing you the best day ever followed always by better tomorrows !!

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Kjell
I wish you well with your project... These are indeed exciting times.......

Ron



Thank you; it's always nice to know that a project generates interest and engagement among users.

And - if anyone has any ideas / comments, they are welcome to come with them on this post ;).
#3 - November 03, 2014, 12:56:32 PM
 

HellanPa3x

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
The Pa3x uses "marker method" to "convert" midi into a style. However, will not be able to change chords - I think it will only trigger a key-change from what I've read. I haven't tested it, but saw someone from the korgforums commenting on this. The general consence is that midi-style-conversion is done mostly (with best results) in a DAW. Changing the midi tracks to play in 1 chord only, and paying close attention to the marker-names - as this will make it possible to import into the pa3x and just play right away. (however, for convincing/cover-like intro's & endings one might keep the original chords for these parts). But I think that's the most correct method, as well as produces the best result. :)
#4 - November 10, 2014, 04:27:03 AM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi

(snip)
... I have barely used the program Midi2Style, but it seems terribly cumbersome and time-consuming ... :(
(snip)

There is NO EASY way to convert styles... believe me... have been there years ago... just like so many others... :(

Have you tried the "Getting Started" guide at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/index.htm (pdf format) or http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/howto.htm (online)... ?

Regards
Jørgen
#5 - November 10, 2014, 05:17:29 AM

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi

(snip)
... I have barely used the program Midi2Style, but it seems terribly cumbersome and time-consuming ... :(
(snip)

There is NO EASY way to convert styles... believe me... have been there years ago... just like so many others... :(

Have you tried the "Getting Started" guide at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/index.htm (pdf format) or http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/howto.htm (online)... ?

Regards
Jørgen



Thanks for your comment, Jørgen!

Understand me right; I have every respect for what you say, and you've no doubt quite right on all points.

My comment about "midi2style" was not intended to cast a negative reputation of the program. It is probably one of the few that actually suited to the task.

The problem is rather that it is I who do not have enough knowledge or patience to read manuals.

The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site is probably the best site for seeking help for keyboard players who exist online, and programs are also the best I know of.


Best
regards
Kjell
#6 - November 10, 2014, 06:18:19 AM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
The Pa3x uses "marker method" to "convert" midi into a style. However, will not be able to change chords - I think it will only trigger a key-change from what I've read. I haven't tested it, but saw someone from the korgforums commenting on this. The general consence is that midi-style-conversion is done mostly (with best results) in a DAW. Changing the midi tracks to play in 1 chord only, and paying close attention to the marker-names - as this will make it possible to import into the pa3x and just play right away. (however, for convincing/cover-like intro's & endings one might keep the original chords for these parts). But I think that's the most correct method, as well as produces the best result. :)

Thanks for confirming post!

All that you say which match exactly what I have come forward;
and I think that MIDI to Style will require more work than anything else I've done, in order to provide a satisfactory outcome.

There is no easy way to do it, but I will not give up so easily, and have plans to work more on that later. ;)
#7 - November 10, 2014, 06:31:01 AM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi

(snip)
My comment about "midi2style" was not intended to cast a negative reputation of the program. It is probably one of the few that actually suited to the task.
(snip)

I did not read your comment as a negative one - not at all...  :)
Guess, we feel all pretty powerless when we convert styles, don't we?

Best wishes
Jørgen
#8 - November 10, 2014, 11:14:35 AM

HellanPa3x

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Jørgen is right, we shouldn't put our beliefs (to much) into computer programs.. This is no easy task to get done. Best we (as musicians) can do, is to use out DAW.. Protools, Cubase, Logic or whatever you're using. It's EXTREMELY time-consuming, and "Chellinoolmo" I respect and encourage your entusiasm. My above comment is what I've learned to be the most precise and easy way to do it, cause there's no "push-and-play" way to do what I think you're trying to accomplish. ;) But best of luck, always nice to see a musician with a Desire and a fire to change the game!  8) Glad my sample-sharing helped you out, just a bit.. Keep  :musik01:
#9 - November 10, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi

(snip)
My comment about "midi2style" was not intended to cast a negative reputation of the program. It is probably one of the few that actually suited to the task.
(snip)

I did not read your comment as a negative one - not at all...  :)
Guess, we feel all pretty powerless when we convert styles, don't we?

Best wishes
Jørgen


Thx for that ;)

It is certainly true; after all it is digital material we try to transform,
and the digital world is much unpredictable.


Best wishes too,
Kjell
#10 - November 10, 2014, 01:23:59 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Jørgen is right, we shouldn't put our beliefs (to much) into computer programs.. This is no easy task to get done. Best we (as musicians) can do, is to use out DAW.. Protools, Cubase, Logic or whatever you're using. It's EXTREMELY time-consuming, and "Chellinoolmo" I respect and encourage your entusiasm. My above comment is what I've learned to be the most precise and easy way to do it, cause there's no "push-and-play" way to do what I think you're trying to accomplish. ;) But best of luck, always nice to see a musician with a Desire and a fire to change the game!  8) Glad my sample-sharing helped you out, just a bit.. Keep  :musik01:


Yeap; Jørgen is right. And thx again ;)

Since I'm laziness, I always try to find the shortest path to the goal.
It also happens that I find a new way nobody has tried before ... :D
#11 - November 10, 2014, 01:30:58 PM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Good luck on this Chell(I hope I can call you that!)
I have tried and tried for the 2 years I've had the pa3x. You do need a good midi and daw. I have sonar one and that is easiest to work with. Lots of transposing and copying and writing so I got lazy and let you do it. But I'm getting all enthusiastic again because of you.
I only wish that korg had a stop to use after the variation key so it only copied what you want.
Much realtime is needed and this is where I fall down. Never seems real enough to me.
Some of your styles are 10+. Nothing worse than a 8 out of 10.
Thank you very much.
Baz
#12 - November 10, 2014, 06:24:46 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Good luck on this Chell(I hope I can call you that!)
I have tried and tried for the 2 years I've had the pa3x. You do need a good midi and daw. I have sonar one and that is easiest to work with. Lots of transposing and copying and writing so I got lazy and let you do it. But I'm getting all enthusiastic again because of you.
I only wish that korg had a stop to use after the variation key so it only copied what you want.
Much realtime is needed and this is where I fall down. Never seems real enough to me.
Some of your styles are 10+. Nothing worse than a 8 out of 10.
Thank you very much.
Baz


Thanks & thanks! :) :)
It is always interesting to share the experiences of others.

I have tried to create styles from MIDI since 1998, and
has spent a lot of time. The results have been disappointing.
Best result I got when I had Tyros1, and it is due
perhaps the fact that the Yamaha XG format is closest to MIDI standard
(my opinion), so if Yamaha not had begun to mess with MegaVoices, had all been easier.

And thank you seems good about my conversions! ;) ;) ;)
#13 - November 10, 2014, 07:06:52 PM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Okay Chell
You have got me going again. Lately, I have set up a studio and am playing with that. I have lady who comes and sings and we have a great time (musically).
I'm going to have a crack at sunny afternoon (kinks) and try a different method.
First, I'll make a style with drums and bass only and then another one or two with instruments and then try to merge them. Haven't had much success doing it in one go.
On another note, I am quite willing to be of help to you if you have projects that you don't have time to tackle. I mean experiments on different methods that might work or small jobs that you need doing as far as styles go.
It would be good to get more styles out for pa3x owners and they might throw their ideas into the pot. More heads the better Hey!
Email me if interested. I also have Skype which is a good way to converse.
Baz
#14 - November 10, 2014, 11:41:50 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Okay Chell
You have got me going again. Lately, I have set up a studio and am playing with that. I have lady who comes and sings and we have a great time (musically).
I'm going to have a crack at sunny afternoon (kinks) and try a different method.
First, I'll make a style with drums and bass only and then another one or two with instruments and then try to merge them. Haven't had much success doing it in one go.
On another note, I am quite willing to be of help to you if you have projects that you don't have time to tackle. I mean experiments on different methods that might work or small jobs that you need doing as far as styles go.
It would be good to get more styles out for pa3x owners and they might throw their ideas into the pot. More heads the better Hey!
Email me if interested. I also have Skype which is a good way to converse.
Baz


A million thanks!

It is a very good idea you have there. It provides better control over the processes,
and you can tell when and where it goes wrong, as it happens. Very good idea!
If I'd had the equipment, I would have tried it myself.

And your offer of sharing of expertise is now listed.
You're probably a lot more expertise in this area than I have,
but your idea coincides very well with my own, although I have to use other equipment to try the same strategy.


Best of luck!
Chell
#15 - November 11, 2014, 02:47:14 AM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
The old Technics arrangers had a great facility for conversion of midi to style.  I remember recording a style from Roland (as a midi file), putting it into the Technics and it did a great job.
DonM
#16 - November 12, 2014, 09:45:07 AM
 
" The Southern Gentleman "

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
The old Technics arrangers had a great facility for conversion of midi to style.  I remember recording a style from Roland (as a midi file), putting it into the Technics and it did a great job.
DonM


When you say that, I also remember it. :)

It is no coincidence that the conversion from Roland to Technics went so well.

I also remember that Roland, Technics and Casio could be converted mutually with very good results.
My first keyboard was a Casio CTK 811ex (1998), who put a fright in the industry. It is the best keyboard Casio has ever made,
and it was so good that it scared the hell out of competition at the nearest price range. With this came a disk with software for
converting almost all of Roland and Technics styles, and it worked very well.

So these three manufacturers apparently had some understanding for common file structure. Midi-to-style via keyboard also acted reasonably.
At that time it was a more common Midi-standard than today, and precisely therefore did these things work better than they do today.

Later has Yamaha and Korg created major problems for the entire industry with their MegaVoices and DNCVoices; and this is just the beginning, unfortunately... :(
#17 - November 12, 2014, 11:55:33 AM
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 11:57:23 AM by chellinoolmo »
 

rikkisbears

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi,
Haven't done much in the way of converting song midifiles to korg, but I am fairly familiar with the style structure of the korg.
Have converted some yamaha styles across to korg using midifiles  of Yamaha styles.
A few years back on the korg PA 800 forum we were looking into creating styles from band in a box styles, project never really took off, not enough users were interested. Did the odd one, they're really simple, but they do work.

I tried a couple of song styles, but not sure the songs themselves were really suitable. Too many string parts not enough rhythm.
Other thing I've tried is just using the intro and ending from a midifile and using a style that works ok with the song.  Saves using the same old intro over and over again for various songs.  Intro's are much simpler than trying to find sections of songs without chord changes , or worse still having to try and transpose tracks.

I have EMC but rarely use it, probably need to study the settings a bit more and try to get them right. Might help.



#18 - November 29, 2014, 05:27:46 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi,
Haven't done much in the way of converting song midifiles to korg, but I am fairly familiar with the style structure of the korg.
Have converted some yamaha styles across to korg using midifiles  of Yamaha styles.
A few years back on the korg PA 800 forum we were looking into creating styles from band in a box styles, project never really took off, not enough users were interested. Did the odd one, they're really simple, but they do work.

I tried a couple of song styles, but not sure the songs themselves were really suitable. Too many string parts not enough rhythm.
Other thing I've tried is just using the intro and ending from a midifile and using a style that works ok with the song.  Saves using the same old intro over and over again for various songs.  Intro's are much simpler than trying to find sections of songs without chord changes , or worse still having to try and transpose tracks.

I have EMC but rarely use it, probably need to study the settings a bit more and try to get them right. Might help.






Then you come as far as me - I've tried everything that you say and have the same experiences.

From these experiences, I am convinced that the key to better results from MIDI to style, lies in the understanding of MIDI standards.
This means that if you want to create a style from a MIDI file that is created via XG format, you must use Yamaha related software or keyboard during the conversion.

You are the first person I know who has done the same experiences as me.


Many thx for a excellent tip!

Best regards
#19 - November 29, 2014, 06:12:37 PM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
I am so pleased that Rikkisbears has joined us.  :D  :D  She can add much expertise to creating styles.      I feel that when our "Resident Style Maker" chellinoolmo collaborates with the talents and expertise of Rikkisbears, there will be exciting times ahead.......

Bravo... Bravo... Bravo
#20 - November 29, 2014, 09:33:37 PM
 
Wishing you the best day ever followed always by better tomorrows !!

rikkisbears

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi Ron,
Nice to be back. Gosh it's been years, didn't realise just how many till I checked back to the beginnings of the forum. Actually had a year or so away from the keyboards,  so I'm  a bit rusty, the old brains not as sharp as it used to be. Haha. Might have to read back thru some of my old posts on korg forum to refresh the memory.haha

I'll go thru my stuff and see if I've got some styles I can contribute.
I don't really convert all that many, I used to mainly try and help members on the Korg forum with info on the style creation  functions on the keyboard.
I don't use EMC for my conversions, I do them from midifiles of a style, and a sequencer, so it's very time consuming. Probably should try using EMC again, probably a lot quicker.
Anyway, great to be back.
#21 - November 30, 2014, 05:44:21 AM
 

rikkisbears

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>

[/quote]


Then you come as far as me - I've tried everything that you say and have the same experiences.

From these experiences, I am convinced that the key to better results from MIDI to style, lies in the understanding of MIDI standards.
This means that if you want to create a style from a MIDI file that is created via XG format, you must use Yamaha related software or keyboard during the conversion.

You are the first person I know who has done the same experiences as me.


Many thx for a excellent tip!

Best regards
[/quote]

Hi,
I used to do a lot of experimenting. I've always found the style structure on different brands of keybords interesting. The newer ones are getting far too complex. If I convert anything, I usually tend to stick to the older styles. Megavoices, guitar mode tracks, live drums  etc are very difficult to convert.

If I can be if any help, let me know.

#22 - November 30, 2014, 05:59:41 AM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi Ron,
Nice to be back. Gosh it's been years, didn't realise just how many till I checked back to the beginnings of the forum. Actually had a year or so away from the keyboards,  so I'm  a bit rusty, the old brains not as sharp as it used to be. Haha. Might have to read back thru some of my old posts on korg forum to refresh the memory.haha

I'll go thru my stuff and see if I've got some styles I can contribute.
I don't really convert all that many, I used to mainly try and help members on the Korg forum with info on the style creation  functions on the keyboard.
I don't use EMC for my conversions, I do them from midifiles of a style, and a sequencer, so it's very time consuming. Probably should try using EMC again, probably a lot quicker.
Anyway, great to be back.


You are hereby welcomed back! :smiley-happy110:
We need gifted members, and in addition you have class expertise, which is very valuable for us.
And you can conveniently test EMC again; conversions goes much faster then, as you suggest.

Or you can use it in combination with other programs and the keyboard, as I do.
We appreciate all contributions! ;)

Collegial greeting,
Chellino
#23 - November 30, 2014, 06:23:22 AM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>



Then you come as far as me - I've tried everything that you say and have the same experiences.

From these experiences, I am convinced that the key to better results from MIDI to style, lies in the understanding of MIDI standards.
This means that if you want to create a style from a MIDI file that is created via XG format, you must use Yamaha related software or keyboard during the conversion.

You are the first person I know who has done the same experiences as me.


Many thx for a excellent tip!

Best regards
[/quote]

Hi,
I used to do a lot of experimenting. I've always found the style structure on different brands of keybords interesting. The newer ones are getting far too complex. If I convert anything, I usually tend to stick to the older styles. Megavoices, guitar mode tracks, live drums  etc are very difficult to convert.

If I can be if any help, let me know.


[/quote]


Again you have made the same experiences as me - and you work the same way as me, with experimenting.

I totally agree with that older styles are much easier to work with, though I recently have concentrated me on the most difficult; MegaVoices and worse. (T5).
#24 - November 30, 2014, 06:33:57 AM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Quote
I totally agree with that older styles are much easier to work with, though I recently have concentrated me on the most difficult; MegaVoices and worse. (T5).

I have no problems using an older Style from an "Older" machine.....As long as it is accepted in your arranger, you now have the ability to change anything you want, using your stock sounds (Data)... This way you can make it your own.......

Ron
#25 - November 30, 2014, 09:39:36 AM
 
Wishing you the best day ever followed always by better tomorrows !!

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Quote
I totally agree with that older styles are much easier to work with, though I recently have concentrated me on the most difficult; MegaVoices and worse. (T5).

I have no problems using an older Style from an "Older" machine.....As long as it is accepted in your arranger, you now have the ability to change anything you want, using your stock sounds (Data)... This way you can make it your own.......

Ron


Yep - older = easy. :D
Newer = difficult. :(
#26 - November 30, 2014, 09:48:13 AM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
I actually have the technics program that does style convert(midi to style) and it converts other brands to KN. It has an auto feature that sometimes works well and sometimes not!
It is on a 3.5 floppy so if anyone would like to convert it if possible, I can send a copy. I no longer have the program that copys it. It is protected. I gave extra copys to my friends in Sydney before I left.
Mayby some computer expert can work on it?
Baz
#27 - November 30, 2014, 05:55:02 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
I actually have the technics program that does style convert(midi to style) and it converts other brands to KN. It has an auto feature that sometimes works well and sometimes not!
It is on a 3.5 floppy so if anyone would like to convert it if possible, I can send a copy. I no longer have the program that copys it. It is protected. I gave extra copys to my friends in Sydney before I left.
Mayby some computer expert can work on it?
Baz


Thx! 8)
I have had it myself many years ago.
If you post it here, I can test it, and see what I can do. 8)
#28 - November 30, 2014, 06:51:22 PM
 

rikkisbears

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi, I could be wrong, really testing my memory now, this was well over 10 years ago, but if I remember correctly, I couldn't do back up copies in my PC, but, I got a friend to do back up copies in his Mac. No copy program or anything involved. Problem is I suppose trying to find a Mac with a floppy drive.
#29 - November 30, 2014, 09:12:31 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi, I could be wrong, really testing my memory now, this was well over 10 years ago, but if I remember correctly, I couldn't do back up copies in my PC, but, I got a friend to do back up copies in his Mac. No copy program or anything involved. Problem is I suppose trying to find a Mac with a floppy drive.


This is no problem - you use a floppy with USB connection. 8)
#30 - December 01, 2014, 05:22:01 AM
 

rikkisbears

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Fair enough. Never had a Mac so wouldn't know what's available for them. Haha
#31 - December 01, 2014, 04:06:08 PM
 

chellinoolmo

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Fair enough. Never had a Mac so wouldn't know what's available for them. Haha


Me neither, but I've used a Mac in an occupational context, many years ago.
It was just as fast at the time as the best PC is today ... :o 8)
#32 - December 01, 2014, 04:42:54 PM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi Rikki!!!  Next time you disappear for a year, you'd better have a note from the doctor!  :)
Great to "see" you again!
DonM
#33 - December 01, 2014, 08:40:01 PM
 
" The Southern Gentleman "

rikkisbears

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi Don,
Nice to hear from you too. Obviously still got a korg? Me too, still have my PA3x, just took it out of mothballs . Haha.
#34 - December 01, 2014, 10:08:14 PM
 

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Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Sold my PA3x and now have a PA900.  A little bit less weight for the old man to tote around!
DonM
#35 - December 01, 2014, 11:45:28 PM
 
" The Southern Gentleman "

rikkisbears

Re: <<< MIDI to STYLE project >>>
Hi Don,
Nice to see you did stay with korg , though.  Yes, must admit, considering the size of the pa3x, it is very solid and heavy, certainly glad mine just sits in the one spot. Haha.
#36 - December 02, 2014, 04:52:17 AM
 

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